This is the third and last interview with people who worked side-by-side with Herbert V. Kohler who passed away on September 3rd.
Mark Vogel was Director of Advertising for Kohler Company for 10 years, from 1985 to 1995. He was there during the build up of the American Club, and was also directly engaged with Herb Kohler on advertising the plumbing and other products. He now lives in St. Louis where he’s head of his own marketing firm, Avant Marketing.
KZ: Tell me about what it was like to work directly with Herb Kohler.
MV: As I tell people, probably 99% of what I’ve learned concerning business management, marketing, branding, and creativity, I’ve learned from Herb Kohler. Definitely, one of the most marvelous individuals that I’ve known. One thing that, I think people don’t understand about Herb is, yes…he was a very dominant individual. He gained a lot of respect, and so on, but he wasn’t dictatorial. And, you hear these stories of long, overnight meetings, and so on, which are probably…what you hear is probably 75% correct…but the reasons why those were long meetings are because he listened to his staff, and really worked through the analysis and problem-solving. He just didn’t make a decision outright and said: “Go, do it!”, there was a point that he really accepted his employee’s point of view, and the discussions that occurred. That’s what made those meetings so lengthy. That’s why I think there’s somewhat of a perception that he was somewhat dictatorial in the way he operated his business, but that’s totally not true on that. And a lot of people thought it was very stressful to have meetings with him, and unfortunately I was in a corporate position as director of advertising and promotional services for the Kohler Company, which meant I wasn’t tied to just one division; I basically had to attend all divisional meetings across-the-board, and some of the subsidiary meetings, so I spent ample time with meetings with Herb Kohler. And, he handled himself the same way, I think, with every business, and so on, and without exception.
And he was a perfectionist – there’s no question about that. And when it came to the advertising, the advertising was an art-form; he had a particular “eye”, and sensitivity…he wanted people have the ability to view advertising as an art form so they could internalize the message in the meeting, and the brand with the advertising, and so it was a pretty high-level objective to meet with each, and every ad that we produced.
But he was also very human. I’ve always said that Herb Kohler is one of the most intelligent people that I’ve ever worked with, and so on. But he was from Sheboygan County, too. And some of that culture was part of his personality, also. But he had a “wit” about him that would show up from time to time.
I remember one time we had a presentation on a very large investment we wanted to get approved. And, for some reason, we had to split the meeting into two different sessions with him. And so we did the first session which outlined the objectives and strategies for the investment. And that second meeting was going to go over the financials, and the two meetings were probably three or four days apart. And so when we got into the second meeting I wanted to quickly review what we’d discussed and agreed upon in the first meeting, and so just out of convenience I had a transparency made of the first meeting, and grabbed an overhead projector in the room and showed that up on-screen. Herb walks in; he looks at the screen, and he squints at the type-written page that was up on the screen, and he basically told me that, he says, “Well, I hope your ideas are bigger than your type.” That’s how the meeting started, so you…he was always good, but he…one thing you knew that he was, if you had a point-of-view that you to discuss, he was going to listen to it and respect that as part of the decision that was to be made.
KZ: That seems to be a common point between everyone I’m speaking about this with; that Herb Kohler really did listen…took into consideration who’s giving the thought, and what the nature of those thoughts were.
MV: Right, and he did not appreciate anybody getting on their soap-box, or any type of self-serving commentary. He could spot that right away, and any B.S. he just totally divorced himself from and would not go far within those meetings.
KZ: What happened if you had a position that you knew he would disagree with, but you thought it was right?
MV: Again, it wasn’t a matter of…he was open-minded and, one instance was when Whistling Straits was being designed. He was just…he had his mind set up…he did not want any golf carts tracks on that links course. And, we told him: “Well, how are you going to manage that?” And he says: “Oh, there’s plenty of senior citizens in Sheboygan County that can be caddies, that we can hire, and we told him: “Herb, you’re gonna need defibrillators at every damn hole, then, if that’s the approach you’re gonna go!” So, we finally convinced him that golf cart pathways were needed for that course.
KZ: But he was going to challenge.
MV: Oh, yes, yes. And he didn’t…you know, he would…you were challenged. I mean, if you walked in with a point-of-view that you were trying to get something approved and so forth, and you hadn’t done your homework, you were going to lose the argument. And he listened to reason…he listened to the facts, and, ironically, I own a market research firm now, and ironically, Herb Kohler did not believe in consumer market research. He wanted to be ten steps beyond what the consumer mindset, and perceptions, were of any day. He wanted to lead the consumer, as opposed to just fulfilling consumer need. Very little value (was put) in consumer research at that time, and because of that, I would think, particularly in the technology side there were probably a few opportunities that were missed. But, overall, on the basis of being a commanding brand, particularly in plumbing, he drove the market…he drove the trends, and so on, and you have the opportunity to do that when you’re in that position.
And, so he was definitely a style and design leader when it comes to home design and the wet rooms that we dealt with.
KZ: So, he more-or-less had an instinct about how to go about it.
MV: And he developed that instinct because he was obviously an international traveler. And he understood other cultures and he understood how certain cultures and product designs could be integrated into the U.S. market particularly, and that also obviously helped us when we extended our business at that time – which was the early ‘90s – into more of an international basis.
I was in charge of opening Kohler Japan in Tokyo, and being able to do the reverse…take U.S. products and, basically, provide the appropriate products for that market, was a very interesting way to go, too. Understanding not only customs, but the style and design of the cultures of different countries and everything else was something that he was definitely an expert at.
KZ: The Kohler branding that ties to “gracious living” is well-known around the world. You say that’s not the whole story.
MV: There is one misconception I’ve heard that people talk about our brand positions, that the Kohler brand is being based upon “gracious living”. That’s not quite complete. The full statement was: “Gracious Living Regardless of Price-Point.” And that was important for us because, when we got into more commodity products, and so forth, the objective was to be the best-of-class within that price point, which was what we strived for. So it wasn’t the matter of just expensive products that Kohler was offering; it was regardless of the household incomes, and so on, Kohler can make your home better. And some people forget about that, because all the focus is on the premium products that are offered, but you know, the basic products too. The Kohler quality went into those, and those were the money-makers for the company.
KZ: If you were to remember one thing about Herb Kohler – the person – and not the business mogul, or imagineer, or whatever, what would you remember of him?
MV: (Long pause) That’s a tough one, because there’s just so many memories of working with Herb. A couple things come to mind just off of impulse responses.
Number-one: his smile. His graciousness…and particularly when he met people. He showed a very personal interest when he met people and so forth. I mean, he made friends immediately with that smile and his handshake on that approach. I think that’s something that’s very memorable when I think of Mr. Kohler.
Number-two: I think, just on the basis of…just his intelligence and how he…his attention to detail, based upon his goal of perfection, was just unbelievable. And he, even as his businesses grew, he knew everything and everything about every product. He didn’t need spreadsheets or whatever to understand the product. He understood the fit, the market, and everything about that product and so on. And even though it was a very demanding position – long hours and so on that you had to put in to be successful there – it was very, very rewarding. And you got a sense of achievement, and it was an achievement that he shared. It wasn’t just Herb Kohler achieving something; it was his team achieving. And that’s kind of the end-results you get there is that…you know, everybody asks me about the long meetings. That seems to be legendary in there. When you came out of an all-night meeting, you were grateful that you were able to participate, because you thought you were a part of history. Major decisions made in that, and so forth, and there was a sense of accomplishment when you got through that, but it was done as a team. It wasn’t just Herb Kohler making decisions, but it was everyone putting in the effort.
KZ: Is it fair to say that he was a “Team Leader”?
MV: Oh, most definitely. Most definitely, and he hired good people. And that’s obviously part of the equation that made him successful. And people that were good communicators as well as smart and creative. I cannot remember a time where I had a concept that, at that time, would be consider “innovative”, that I was turned down because of cost. If it was a good idea, and he thought it had potential, the cost was not even a consideration. It was: “Let’s do it – let’s be successful with it.” And some of it was experimentation, but that’s part of the creativity that that entire brand is founded on, and is inspired by Herb Kohler, as the creative side of the business.
KZ: Any final thoughts?
MV: One final thought I would have about Herb Kohler is, I was certainly appreciative, and glad, of the presence of him in the Kohler Company, in the golf courses with the Ryder Cup. I mean, that was his ultimate goal, to have that type of event. I think that was his lifetime goal that he arrived at with that – it was just spectacular. I did not attend…but I watched it on television, and I took a lot of pride…in that event because of him, so I think it was just…understanding how important that was to him,
(here, Vogel had an emotional pause)
and how gratifying it was, was an important aspect of Herb Kohler.
KZ: Seeing the smile on Herb Kohler’s face during the Ryder Cup, and seeing first-hand the scale of that event, I know he had to be very proud of what was able to be accomplished.
MV: Yeah, it was, it just seemed to be a good, lifetime ending for him on the basis of a sense of accomplishment. Again, you talk about the team environment, and so on, it was an event where the sense of pride was shared with everyone – it wasn’t just Herb Kohler.
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